Thursday, October 16, 2008

MORMONS AND HORSES



CONFRONTING THE MISSIONARIES

I believe religion to be a vast and varied evil, wasting human energy, tribalizing humanity, causing wars and impeding ethical evolution. Mormonism is among the worst because of its thoroughgoing brainwashing of its children.

To be a Mormon you have to believe many things that are unbelievable. Just one of these is that there were horses in America before Cortez introduced them in 1519. The Book Of Mormon says that there were. (1 Nephi 18:25—“there were beast in the forest of every kind, both the cow and the ox and the ass and the horse....”) Science denies this.

So before confronting the missionaries, I marshaled my evidence: (check it out for yourself)
“American Museum of Natural History magazine, may 17, 2008...”Horses died out in America 10,000 years ago”
“Canadian Geographic–A brief history of the horse in America.
Smithsonian Institute: The Horse in America
American Horse Magazine–Ned Eddings: researcher–(ned-eddings@msn.com)

All agree that horses died out in America about 10,000 years ago along with the saber toothed tiger, the wooly mammoth and other large mammals. The book of Mormon alleges to record the span of 600 BC to 400 AD. So you see the conflict.

Armed with this evidence, I went reverse missionizing, hoping to persuade Mormon Missionaries that their Holy Book is a fraud and they are wasting their lives on a delusion. I chose just this one arrow from my quiver, aiming it for an achilles heel: One clear and unequivocal fact that proves that the Book Of Mormon, to say the least, is in error.

So I found the Missionaries and with kindness, presented the conflict: the Book of Mormon vs Scientific fact.----and waited for their answer.

If you think they were troubled by the conflict or convinced by the facts, then you don’t know the religious mind. Almost NOTHING can convince an indoctrinated mind that it has been deceived. Only time can sometimes erode doctrines. I met an ex Mormon in Baker, Nv who told me that the evidence against Mormonism built up in his mind over years until one day it suddenly yielded and he declared out loud: “this is bullshit.” It is not widely known but there are ex-mormon groups all over Utah that meet to celebrate their freedom from this irrational religion.

Anyway, Here’s what the Missionaries said: “If the Book of Mormon says it–I believe it. When I have doubts, I just pray and heavenly father restores my faith.”

I expected as much—but I’ve done my job and I go away satisfied. I’ve planted seeds. Do you think these guys would have better lives believing or unbelieving? Those interested in pursuing this issue further can google Mormons and horses in America. Also Wikipedia–Mormons–and scroll down to movement wide criticisms of the sacred text: Archaeology, genetics, linguistics etc.

12 comments:

David said...

The horse issue and many others have been addressed in depth in articles like
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/AshHorse/

and others at

http://www.fairlds.org

Seth R. said...

Any responsible archeologist would not assert, as you have that it is indisputable that horses died out tens of thousands of years ago. They would simply state that there is no evidence of horses beyond that time period.

This is a far cry from saying we've proven there were no horses until the Europeans arrived. It took quite a while for Europeans to even set eyes on the Great plains - well over a hundred years and by the time they arrived, there were already mounted Indians there.

Can you state with certainty that these Indians only got their horses from the descendants of the Spaniards' horses?

There really is no good reason why horses should have died out in the Western Hemisphere. It's a pretty good climate and habitat for horses, actually. Archeologists still have a hard time accounting for this.

Really, you are just saying that because we haven't found any confirming evidence, that means we've proven the absence of such animals.

Any 3rd rate archeologist could tell you that this is an extremely foolish assumption.

No one believed that barley existed in pre-Columbian America either, until it was discovered in Arizona recently.

Likewise, no one will believe in pre-Columbian horses... until they too are discovered somewhere.

This is not a valid criticism of the Book of Mormon.

Randy said...

Thank you Seth and David for your comments. I would bet money that you both are Mormons and were indoctrinated as children. That doesn't invalidate your points, Seth, just makes your motives suspect. No, the evidence is not indisputable--nothing is. But it is overwhelming. So much so, that only the Mormons cling to the myth of pre-columbian horses.
I would think that this anachronism and the hundred more I could name (like brass--2 Nephi 5:15 and steel swords--Ether 7:9--when we both know that metallurgy did not appear till the 800's AD; the compass, cows etc) Eventually the evidence should break through your indoctrination like the guy in Baker, Nv.
Is is possible for a vigorous culture,like Mormonism, to be build on an outright fraudulent mythology? Yes! Just like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all built on a ridiculous mythology.

Anonymous said...

"Just like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all built on a ridiculous mythology" ... and others...

... to quote another 'philosopher'... "insults are the arguments used by those who are wrong and know it... keep your arguments to verifiable fact... and leave the name calling to others... your 'argument' will maintain more credibility that way.

Without faith...this is all just a 'chemical freak' ... no justification for morality, truth, honor, loyalty... if there is no consequence... if there is nothing 'after'... then there is no justifiable 'reason' to be a 'good' person... just go out and 'do' anybody and everybody...

Randy said...

I would like ask anonymous if he believes that Mohammed rode to heaven on a winged horse. Or does he regard that belief as mythology. How about a talking snake in the garden of eden. Challenging religious myths is very useful--it makes for progress--slowly. These days myths and doctrines are being challenged--even ridiculed more than ever before in best selling books like THE END OF FAITH by Harris and THE GOD DELUSION by Dawkins.
And if you believe that morality and truth are "divinely revealed" rather than discovered,
I challenge you to tell us WHOSE
REVELATION is right and whose is wrong. Wars are being fought today over this issue. (or don't you read the newspapers?)
Atheist and agnostics have displayed honor and loyalty throughout history.
An alternative to naively believing your indoctrination is to accept the mystery of existence; tolerate ambiguity.
Speculate away--but call it speculation--that way, we are unlikely to fight about it.
Have Faith--in your own deepest intuition.

Anonymous said...

The sad point to this story is that you have been robbed of your faith. Im sorry that you dont have a relationship with god and that you cling to other peoples opinions to claim your own. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Is Gods Kingdom on the earth today; preparatory to Christ Second Coming. The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. Pray to know. Unless you put forth the honest effort to prove it wrong. Dont!

Randy said...

The readers might like to know that the last anonymous comment was in fact elder (only 22 yrs old)Alberson pictured in the blog. Do you think he will take the challenge mentioned earlier--to explain how brass and steel were in America even before metallurgy was invented? (2 Nephi 5:15 and Ether 7:9)
Mormons are supremely irrational. As soon as they become rational they leave the church. I'm pleased to report that they have a 25% attrition rate. Like a leaky balloon they must keep pumping to keep themselves inflated. They vigorusly indoctrinate the young and send them on missions to keep the game going. They appeal to the ignorant. Show me a college prof who has been persuaded by this incredible story.

David said...

I'm a college prof and have been more than persuaded by the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

As I mentioned in the first comment on this post, horses (and steel and brass) have been addressed at http://fairlds.org

The brass and steel specifically have been given treatment in the paper at:
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Steel_in_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

Randy said...

Come clean David! You were first indoctrinated as a Mormon, and now that you are a professor find that the Book of Mormon is persuasive. (surprise, surprise) Would you have the courage to try and persuade an un-indoctrinated professor of anthropology at any major university in America that the Mormon story of migration to the new world is true? Let me be doubly clear. ONLY MORMONS BELIEVE THIS RIDICULOUS STORY.
In fact, BYU has had its accreditation threatened because it tries to (somehow) hold on to that story.
I have read your fair articles. They are not convincing. ONLY MORMONS WOULD FIND THEM CONVINCING. Yours is a self reinforcing community. You work hard at convincing each other. Your bookstores contain no (seriously) opposing views to the party line. And you whitewash your history. Who said so? The PBS documentary on The Mormons.
Have the courage David to seriously question your indoctrination.

Goodmangang said...

Well I started reading your blog because I am a survivalist. I also like the fact of stealthness your cargo trailer has. I built one out of my contractors trailer for my boy and I to go on out Gold prospecting trips and deer hunting trips. We have a 27 foot camper for when mom and the girls come along. I am a Mormon and do not care what you think of me for this. If i am indoctrinated and walking the wrong path then what is it to you. If i come up to you and say you are some freak because you have lived on the road for the last 23 years or so. Do you really give a crap what I think about your way of life. No you don't and you should not. I mean Horses and metal is that all you can think about. There are hundreds of strange things about us freaky Mormons and you want to talk about Horses and Metal work. Will as a prospector know for a fact that gold & minerals have been around for a few years. And as a man that grew up on horses and loving the huge beast I like to think that they have been here for ever.

Next time you see a set of missionaries maybe you should think to your self. There goes two young men that are doing good with there lives. Trying to share what makes them find happiness. There goes two young men that are dedicated in life and headed in a direction for what they believe to be good. Do not try to confound them, try to understand they do what they do because they love it just as you love the life you live in your trailer. I converted one man to the gospel I find to be true when i was serving my mission. He is no longer a member in the church. That does not make me think any less of him. He made the choice to join and the choice to move on.

I wish you well on your travels and will continue to fallow you blog and your web site.

Jade
IN the great state of Arizona.

Randy said...

Thank you Jade for taking the time and trouble to comment.
We were both indoctrinated, me by the Southern Baptist and you by the Mormons. But when I was confronted with several Biblical contradictions (e.g. 1 Chron 21:1 vs 2 Sam 24:1) I ADMITTED they were contradictions and gave up my notions of an infallible Bible. I began to read contrary opinions like Bertrand Russell's "WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN". Eventually I became an agnostic, fully admitting that I had no access to (metaphysical) certainty. I FULLY ADMIT that my heritage participated in slavery and justified it Biblically. We were therefore complicit in the 610,000 deaths of the civil war. Southern Baptist of today are still complicit in a host of evils like trying to put creationism in the schools and denying women reproductive rights, civil rights etc.
Now I wonder if you will admit that Mormonism spawned the evils of polygamy, (the remnants are still with us) That your church had to be dragged kicking and screaming away from polygamy and from bigotry(the blacks in the priesthood thing); that your people cold bloodedly murdered men women and children in the Mountain Meadows Massacre and stonewalled justice for the culprits in Cedar city.
For all the good things that can be said about your culture (I'll say them if you wish) you have let loose a host of evils like the suppression of women and if you were honest you would come clean like I did about mine.
Indoctrination damages people, whether done by Mormons, Baptist or the Taliban. I'm proud of my efforts to debunk superstition and to foster a greater tolerance for ambiguity. I daresay your life is being cramped in many ways by your superstitions--not the least of which is the wasted time and money you give to your church. I dare you to read Sandra Tanner's book: Mormon claims examined or Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation.

Dan said...

The problem with discussions like this is that the contestants do not agree on an epistemology.

The empiricist/scientist relies on probabilities based on what can be measured or examined objectively.

The religionist often likes to think of himself as subscribing to science, but ultimately believes in a combination of personal revelation and tradition. Ultimately, the religionist cannot be 'reasoned' with because his beliefs are founded on faith.

When one's beliefs have such a foundation, the believer can believe ANYTHING. There are no limits, but his own imagination, or that of his original guru.

Mormons are unpersuaded by the mountain of evidence that shows The Book of Abraham's Egyptian text is not what they purport it to be; that the DNA evidence shows the American Native is not Hebrew; that archeology does not support the BOM. NOTHING will change their belief system, because they are simply dishonest if they claim to believe in science and reason.